RoADAR Northeast

Bones · Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:25 pm When is an 'Undertake' not an 'Undertake'?

Highway Code 139: Overtaking.

Interpreting the clauses is mostly fine, but I'm sure we all have encountered the "Lane-2 is fine for me" people. Normally tootlingallong at maybe 50 to 80% of the speed limit.

How is this best handled?

Also, is 'undertaking'

a) Passing a vehicle that is in a higher-order lane than yours. Neither road user changes lanes in this case. The road user in the higher-order lane is simply travelling slower than you are in the lower-order lane

or

b) Passing a vehicle that is in the same lane as you, by using a lower-order lane and then returning to your original lane

or

c) both of the above

And one just for good measure...

Consider a 3+ lane motorway: You are travelling at 70mph in lane 1. The guy that is day-dreaming is in lane 3 travelling less than 70mph. No other traffic within the safe breaking distance all around.

Is this an ‘undertake’?
Is this safe?

Cheers guys!

John Steele · Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:18 am

A good set of points - got me thinking (which is one reason to have a forum!). So here's the end result of thinking process (but bear in mind I had a late gig last night........)

"How is this best handled?"

If you mean undertaking oneself, I guess you just don't do it unless traffic is "moving slowly in queues..." ["Highway Code"] - although what counts as "slowly" on a motorway is itself an interesting point of debate. If being undertaken by someone else, then, having been frequently checking mirrors, this will come as no surprise :) and you will experience that warm glow that comes with being a better driver than the other guy.....

I think all of your examples count as undertaking but in increasing order of sin magnitude:

zero for the (a) example providing traffic moving slowly

cardinal sin for (b) because most drivers don't expect other drivers to do this and don't always check their mirrors as frequently as they should, plus it's the sort of behaviour that provokes rage and even retaliation ("victim" of undertake speeds up to make sure "undertaker" can't get back into lane).

Not sure how to grade (c)

I like your extra question. I remember being on M1 in Midlands with a stream of nose-to-tail traffic all in the 4th lane, I was in the lane 1 and there was nobody else in sight in lanes 1-3. It is the sort of situation where you start to wonder about the survival prospects of the human race.
I must confess to a creeping undertake at 70 - it felt safe because the speed difference was small and (with 4 lanes) there were acres of room to manouvre. I can plead that I wasn't an advanced driver then! but whether it can be offically recommended I'm not sure. I certainly didn't want to be in that 4th lane.

If it's one guy, I'm even less sure. Most of me thinks, do it properly, get into the 3rd lane, a safe (and non-threatening) distance back and, if he doesn't move, a brief flash of the headlights may do the trick. If that doesn't work back into the middle lane and wait....... then maybe back into lane 1 for safe undertake - but it certainly doesn't come under the definition of "slowly" . So I expect to get shot down for this.
Hope you get some more input - it's a good question.
Cheers,
John.

John Steele · Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:23 am

Whoops - I seem to have strayed into the bikers section. When I realised, I was tempted to remove my contribution (and stick it in the cars bit) but then I thought, Why?........perhaps I should socialise with bikers more.....?

Tom Coops · Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:14 pm

A good question. Now just too really put the cat among the pigeons so to speak.

What about filtering that is going down the middle of the traffic between the lanes?

Now that should be interesting between 4 wheeled drivers and 2 wheels riders different perspectives.

I might know some of the answers but I am keeping quiet for a bit till I get to know you all. :shock:

John Steele · Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:32 am

Hi Tom
Welcome to the forum. I must say I'd forgotten this strand - I was sitting reading my contribution and thinking "Did I write that?" but then, at my age stuff from a year+ ago doesn't always stick so well.

As an "advanced driver" :) , I like to think that my use of mirrors is such that I have no problem with the filtering that you describe - it's simply riders making progress and I try to make room for them.

As an ex-cyclist, I admire the courage of riders in assuming that drivers are aware of what's behind and to the side. Actually I feel quite shaky just thinking about the risk element. But that's probably down to loss of youth!!

Bikerlass · Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:52 pm

Tom Coops wrote:

I might know some of the answers but I am keeping quiet for a bit till I get to know you all. :shock:

Come on then Tom............... Dooooooo Tellllllllllllllllllllllllll...........
:P

Bikerlass · Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:58 pm

John Steele wrote:
As an ex-cyclist, I admire the courage of riders in assuming that drivers are aware of what's behind and to the side. Actually I feel quite shaky just thinking about the risk element. But that's probably down to loss of youth!!

As a motorcyclist I am a seriously aware car driver!!!!!!

Still there are times that there are bikes which take me unawares when I am in my car!

This is a seriously concerning fact for me to wrangle with as I always use observation to the max!!!!!

What are the experiences of filtering you have had wether you are a car driver or a bike rider??????????????

Tom Coops · Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:00 pm

Hi John thanks for the welcome,

The good thing about modern cars is the mirrors fold in or out quite easily and they are still stuck in traffic and can’t chase you. ONLY KIDDING before you start.:twisted:

Below 30mph on dual carriageways (motorways) should be fine but not if you have to bend the bike around the mirrors or keep changing lanes to make progress.

Going to near the front of the traffic lights can be fine but always keep a car back in order not to force a 'race' with people at the front. Not allowed in the green boxes even though your tax disk says you are a bicycle (dam).

There are other situations that are fine so who out there is going to join the fun of sharing information?

Here’s a clue; go find your handbook book (sorry John but its in the Motorcycling version) and look at page 139 at the bottom.

Tom Coops · Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:04 pm

Bikerlass wrote: John Steele wrote:
As an ex-cyclist, I admire the courage of riders in assuming that drivers are aware of what's behind and to the side. Actually I feel quite shaky just thinking about the risk element. But that's probably down to loss of youth!!

As a motorcyclist I am a seriously aware car driver!!!!!!

Still there are times that there are bikes which take me unawares when I am in my car!

This is a seriously concerning fact for me to wrangle with as I always use observation to the max!!!!!

What are the experiences of filtering you have had wether you are a car driver or a bike rider??????????????

Ride my Harley with its 4 external speakers at full volume with some LOUD music and hey, just like having blues and Twos, coming through :twisted:

John Steele · Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:33 am

Tom Coops wrote:

The good thing about modern cars is the mirrors fold in or out quite easily and they are still stuck in traffic and can’t chase you.

Tom, that's brilliant. I'm tempted to get my cycling gear on again this summer just to try this. My feeble best retaliation (again as cyclist) was in really cold weather, when I would wear a pull-down balaclava (eye and mouth holes) and I looked really scary from up close and banging on the roof of a car certainly gets a response.

Now, as an advanced driver, I do, of course, regard all of this tom-foolery as simply juvenile...........
:D

Tom Coops · Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:25 pm

John Steele wrote: Tom Coops wrote:

The good thing about modern cars is the mirrors fold in or out quite easily and they are still stuck in traffic and can’t chase you.

Tom, that's brilliant. I'm tempted to get my cycling gear on again this summer just to try this. My feeble best retaliation (again as cyclist) was in really cold weather, when I would wear a pull-down balaclava (eye and mouth holes) and I looked really scary from up close and banging on the roof of a car certainly gets a response.

Now, as an advanced driver, I do, of course, regard all of this tom-foolery as simply juvenile...........
:D

Less of the Tom you.

yep good to have fun but even better to do it right

Shaun Edmondston · Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:45 pm

Ok, so here is another slight variation on the whole undertake / filtering thought, and one that might get me shot down instantly but here goes.

If any of you have travelled West towards Newcastle on the A184 lately you will be aware that just before Heworth roundabout are the most irritating roadworks that have meant just one lane open for what seems like years now. If the row in front of you is a row of cars it is normally possible to gentle filter past between them and the cones. However, especially at peak times there is always loads of lorrys and trucks which makes the gap a bit tight!

For about the last 2 weeks when I have travelled along here I have seen a biker filtering through and each time he reaches a truck he simply nips through the cones onto the works section, bobs past and slides back through the cones onto the carriage again.
This appears to me to be a brilliant idea if done carefully, but I was wondering if it is a) massively illegal, b) semi illegal or c) frowned upon but ok if you are careful. Every morning I wrestle with whether to follow him or not so figured I would through the thought at you guys to see what you would all do in the same situation!

Cheers everyone.

PS Before anyone does shoot me, I HAVN'T actually tried it yet, just thought about it... :wink:

PanPilot · Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:50 pm

[quote="Shaun Edmondston" he simply nips through the cones onto the works section, bobs past and slides back through the cones onto the carriage again.
:[/quote]

Hmmm.. a good question, Watson.

Is it actually illegal to enter the coned-off area....? I don't know.
I suspect if a County Mountie saw you, the question might be resolved, however!

PanPilot · Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:57 pm

Having thought about this (doesn't happen often), I suspect legally it depends on the road signage; if you pass a 'lane closed' sign, does that define it in terms of road traffic law?

Tom Coops · Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:45 pm

Seems fine but it is very naughty and will get you some points you will not like plus a canny fine.

Think, would you use the hard shoulder on a motorway to do the same thing?

Another

If a bike is twitching like they have ants in their pants when filtering could also get them recless driving or worst as obviously there is not enough room. Take it easy and get from A 2 B safe.